Hi all,

An eternity ago (like 2 years) I posted in this forum and I remember quite a dynamic and heated debate in the threads I started or participated in. As I joined in to try to offer help, and I am not LS myself, my participation was short. Today however, I have received 2 messages from members of this forum asking me to participate again, as they found my contributions useful. Normally I probably would have replied to these users and politely declined, as until last week i had an incredibly busy life... However, last Tuesday something happened, and I have loads of free time now (wish I hadn't though) and a mental state that makes me want to talk about anything unrelated to what happened last week.

This is sounding too mysterious... Last Tuesday, 22nd February, an earthquake destroyed my city, Christchurch, which is now in ruins. More than 200 people, some of them family members of my coworkers, died in it, and the city centre and some of the suburbs of the formerly most beautiful city in New Zealand are unrecognizable. I have been incredibly lucky: my loved ones are ok, and my house is standing. I have a friend with special needs staying with us at home, as his flat is uninhabitable. I have power and water, which is a luxury, as parts of the city have had neither for 10 days. I have also lots of time in my hands, and a mind that was stunned for some days.. but suddenly things have started to sink in.

Anyway, enough self-pity. I am 34 years old, female, not Angelina Jolie but not ugly either, and I have had quite a normal sex life for most of my life. I have my own job (or should I say "had"?) and have always been independent, I have lived happily with and without a partner (I have a partner now), I have had and enjoyed casual sex, and had been accepted and rejected by lovers. As I did before in this forum, I am only offering to answer any questions with the truth, for any of you who is interested in asking a more or less average woman about her experiences, her opinions. I will be honest, and I know from the previous time that some users here do not appreciate honesty that does not agree with their own opinions. However, I have a thick skin, and a current personal situation that has brought home what is really important in life... so I won't be affected by any insult or challenge.

There, that's me. If I can be of any help, I will be glad to talk to you. If you believe I am a waste of time, then feel free to ignore

Hugs from the city in ruins...

I just read your story about Paul, and that type of behavior is sort of the opposite of what I do. As in out of my paranoia of seeming creepy, I intentionally go the opposite direction and maybe seem a little standoffish. The only things that I've ever done are approach women at college parties when I have been drinking or more often I'll just drink some beers and hope that a woman approaches me (which is not very often). The few times that I do approach, I am careful to look for not only a woman who looks like she wants to dance but is less likely to reject me (I like numbers and probability). My bigger issue is what the hell do I do when I don't have my crutch (alcohol) to lean on? The only time I asked a girl out was asking a girl to go to a movie following me spending time hanging out at her house (where she invited me). In the end, she had friend-zoned me despite telling me that she had a crush on me while we worked together at a summer job. Personally, I felt that she could have be more straightforward about just wanting me to be a friend and I would not have had a problem with that. It was just more disappointing that she did not let me know that earlier. She later told me that she was pursuing a different guy who she thought was shy and as a result of what I had told her about shy men had asked this guy out. He responded that he was not interested in her. Since I found all of this stuff out from her, I reduced my contact with her to a minimum as I felt that she was using me just as emotional support.

While I did manage to ask 1 girl out and do it while perfectly sober without seeming creepy (as far as I know), it just reinforced my insecurity about approaching women without any booze.

Overall, I have a few questions:
1.) Since I am usually pretty shitty at picking up on subtle signs that a girl has any interest in me due to my own insecurities, what types of things should I look out for?
2.) How should a guy show interest without seeming creepy?
3.) A few different times, I have spoken with girls who I hooked up with at a party, but eventually, the communication just sort of fades. What could I do to break that nowhere cycle?

Sorry to hear about the earthquake and for everyone who has suffered loss. Natural disasters are probably some of the most humbling experiences for anyone.

I'm a newer user here and took a gander through your previous thread, so welcome back. I'd actually like to see more women here, whether I agree with them or not, as long as they are not pro censoring the other users from expressing themselves. Just having a counterbalance of sorts to the status quo can be rather healthy, and you handled yourself well throughout that thread, considering the circumstances.

For me though, I already feel I have a decent understanding of male/female dynamics, as to how we might relate on an average level and how it might effect me and who I am. I think in some ways what you said in the previous thread, was a fairly honest expression of things I've already witnessed and understood, only said in different words than I would. I appreciate the honesty.

Given that I think you are probably correct in how an average woman might react to love shy guys, shy guys, guys with low self esteem, depression, anxiety, or resentment issues in general, I'm not sure I have much I can learn from further questioning, myself. Averages, are just that. There are outliers, but they are rarer by nature.

Me, I don't really have poor self esteem per say when taking myself as a whole person. It's more specific traits I have that are undesirable or limiting (mentally/physically disabled, poor, can't speak, can't eat, socially phobic, depressed, suicidal, etc) which would serve to turn off the vast majority of the female population on average, or at least limit my contact and communication with them severely.

I already comprehend that fully, but it is not something I resent much over. In many mammals, it's female instinct to prefer a strong desirable mate, when available. In many ways, both myself and love shy guys in general don't display those traits. So it's very easy to pass us over, or reject us, even if we don't display traits as extreme or antisocial as that guy Paul you were talking about.

Really, I'm not convinced women can change their preferences, anymore than I can change my preference for physically attractive women. I don't necessarily agree with either instinct, (I consider both quite judgmental and heartless, ignoring inherent value of human beings, respectively) but I can't hold an unconscious, ingrained instinct against another person, unless they are proud of it.

That was off on a tangent, but once again, welcome back. Glad to see you around. Keep on your toes. Yeah we've got some characters around here, but I think a lot of us aren't so bad, bitter as we may appear at times.

Hi Coolwoman. I had a look through your thread. There are some interesting insights in there, and I admire your thick skin

Re: Christchurch, I can't imagine the kind of suffering your city is going through. I'm glad you and your family are okay.

First of all, condoleances on all the crap that happened to you during the earthquake.
That must have been terrible.. And thanks for coming back.

Before I ask my question, I'd like to explain a bit about my background. Like some others here,
I have been diagnosed with Asperger. That basically means: a mild case of autism. What this
means in practice is that I have more difficulty than the average individual with reading emotions
and body language, as well as lacking intuition for basic social behavior. You would probably
hardly notice it if you met me, though, because like most Aspergers, I have largely learned to
compensate with a more rational (as opposed to intuitive) understanding of social behavior.

However. Romance poses special problems, because here you need to break certain "rules" and I have
trouble understanding what is "expected" of me.

On top of that, I am deeply ashamed of my sexuality. This is mostly caused by certain events in my
youth that I would rather not talk about. In particular, I have difficulty believing that a woman
would actually want to have sex, even though I rationally understand this to be true.

So here's my question. What is the normal, expected behaviour during a date? I have had a few dates
and each time, the lady said I'm a nice guy, but no relationship material. It could be coincidence
and bad luck, but I'm wondering. Maybe I was being too distant and holding back too much? How much
should you hold back during a first date? How is it possible that a date could escalate in more than
just friendly talk? Does a woman expect you to touch you? (Eek! )

sorry about your loss, must be hard and welcome back!

Hi Quitforlife,

Thanks so much for sharing your story. I will give you my opinion, although you have to consider that I am only one woman, and my view won't be the same as the view from many other women out there.
An important factor you haven't mentioned here is your age, and the ages of women you usually approach. This is important, as younger women will not respond the same way as more mature ones. When I was younger I was much more shy and less self-confident than I am now. When I was 14-16 years old I used to be a bit chubby and got teased at school. As a result of that I had a low self-esteem, and even when I lost the weight I still saw myself as "chubby" in my mind and did not realize that I was actually quite pretty (I see it now when I look at photos of me). It took me years to gain confidence. So if you had met me in similar circumstances to the ones you describe when I was 18 to 24 years old, my response to your questions would have been:

1.) When I was with a guy I fancied I would find it difficult to look at him in the eye for more than half a second. The guy would notice, because as soon as he stared at my eyes i would lower them quickly and smile. Sometimes I would even flush. I would also smile all the time while talking to him and would try to be very agreeable, and laugh at all his jokes, even the silliest ones (pathetic, i know). Whenever we said good-bye, i would always try to set another "date" with the slightest excuse. For example, I would leave an umbrella, or a bag, in his car on purpose, so we'd have to meet again.

2.) Back then I was quite blind to guys interested in me, to be honest... you'd have to have a flashing sign on your head saying "I LIKE YOU!" and I'd still wouldn't have picked it up. I was used to be teased, and sometimes when a guy was pretty clearly telling me he liked me, I thought he was making fun of me. So whichever way you showed your interest in me wouldn't have worked, unless I liked you first, which would have made it very annoying for any guy that happened to fancy me (a school mate apparently spent years trying to "seduce" me, he was actually a very popular guy, so I was convinced he was pretending and wanted to have a laugh at me... and the poor guy was serious!).

3.) I have never been the party person. And I almost always let the communication fade when I met a guy in a party/pub. The reason is, I find it quite easy to get artificially interested in a guy when dancing/drinking, and then I find out we have nothing in common at all. Back then, besides, I was not up for one-night stands, and in my mind guys you met in the pub were almost exclusively for that.

Now, if you're talking about more mature women (in my case, 25 to 34 y o), I personally changed a lot. I started believing in myself and I found out that, as a woman, I had a great power over men if I knew how to use it. I started to flirt with guys myself instead of waiting for them to take the initiative, and I was amazed at how often it worked, and it worked great. As the change was gradual I still had a lot to learn and at the beginning had some embarrassing rejections. However, trial and error worked great too. My response to your three questions today would be very different:

1.) If I was interested in you I would overtly flirt with you. Not in an "agressive" way (I am not a man-eater), but I would smile at you in a cheeky way, use "double-meanings" when talking, make jokes that are not jokes, if you get what I mean, and checking your reaction to them. Women tend to play with meaning and words, and gestures, and I understand this must mess with guys' heads most of the time. But believe me, we are really, really good with reading faces and inferring feelings. this is just what it is, and has evolved together with women's preferences for feelings over rationality. Most men are utterly incapable of interpreting signs and gestures half as good as the average woman. When we use this ability we are not consciously trying to confuse a man, but trying to extract important information for us: "is this guy dangerous or safe?", "is he nervous because he likes me or because he has other agenda?", "does he fancy me in an emotional way or just for sex?". Guys usually need what a woman wants spelled out... women try to be more subtle and infer it. And we are really good at it.

2.) A guy must show interest, but not being pushy. A woman who is not attracted to you is going to feel pressured by you if you insist on overtly showing your interest. I would recommend you to use an "ladder" approach. Start with very subtle hints, like looking her in the eye for prolonged periods (but don't stare at her all the time, that IS creepy), smiling at her, asking things about her (some guys keep talking about themselves all the time, and that is not creepy, but incredibly boring, especially when they concentrate in a particular man hobby for which the woman does not give a damn). When you offer to do something together, or take her to the movies, once again, don't be pushy: if she says NO, take it as a no, and if you want to try again in case she was playing hard to get, wait until the end of the date, or send a text the next day. If you get another no, then stop there and wait for her to suggest something. A guy who has been told a clear "no" and keeps pushing is creepy. Don't stand too close to her when talking to her, that can be creepy to. The distance of a small table between the two of you is perfect, don't try to sit by her side, but opposite to her.

A very, very important thing men usually forget about, because it is not imprinted in their genes as it is in females, is that personal space in women is VERY important. When a woman meets a new male, a part of her subconscious is on red alert, as he could be an attacker. Women are physically weaker and what they can't compensate by muscle, they have to by foresight. Any pushiness. any unnecessary closeness with a stranger, will put her on guard... and if she is uncomfortable with you, your chances of succeeding in a date are 0.

3.) Same as before, I usually don't follow through much with guys I meet at the pub or in a party. If I fancy a guy for a one-night stand, then I will bring him to my house or go to his, but I have to say, for me this has never, ever led to a relationship. It is me who does not call the guy the next day actually. For sexual attraction, it is enough with the first impression you cat get in a party. For a relationship, I am much more careful, and tend to choose a guy that I already know has things in common with me. But this is just me. I don't "fall in love at first sight", or it has never happened to me before. I need to see the person a number of times and find common ground.

Hope it helps!

Hi thechak,

It is great to read of someone that knows himself and accepts certain things. It looks to me nature has thrown a bunch at you, and you're just trying to make a life of it. Fair or unfair, the traits you describe ("mentally/physically disabled, poor, can't speak, can't eat, socially phobic, depressed, suicidal, etc", as per your description) would indeed be considered "big baggage" by either male or female. To that you have to add your own personal preferences, as per "attractive women", which would add an extra limit to the range of women you can choose from.

The only thing I can say that plays in your favor is that you do not sound the self-pitying kind of guy, and that is a big plus. Self-pity is a big put-off for a woman, as it gives the impression of weakness and negativity, and most women like an assertive, positive guy (no mystery here, most guys also prefer assertive, positive women). Self-pitying men also rarely change, as they blame everything that is wrong to other people or circumstances, and as a result, never change their negative traits. If you accept things that you can't change, and try to improve the ones you can, you will stand a chance. It is a smaller chance than a person without your traits would have, but the fact that something is harder does not mean it is impossible. Women have the "care and protect" gene too, and if you show yourself as a positive person that has been unlucky in life, but is fighting, you will attract this kind of caring and protective woman. Now, whether you feel attracted by her or not is a different matter

Hi Zeek,

Thanks for your words . Writing in forums like this one, and trying to keep my mind occupied, is what's helping right now. Other people are not as lucky as me and have no way of escaping reality, as they have no internet, no water, no power, and children to take care of. And they have lost their jobs and salary.i am a lucky one, but still have my ups-and-downs

"He's a close talker!"

Also I have a question. I don't go to parties or pubs because I'm not looking for a one night stand. As al love-shy, I'm looking for a serious and meaningful relationship. But then I don't know where I'm supposed to meet women, because in my career the proportion of females males in a class is 1:17. When I go to the city's main public library, it's full of beautiful woman carying very interesting books, but unlike a party or a pub, I don't think that a woman would see a library as a place for socialize so I don't think they'll be in the mood for being aproached in that place. So, asuming that I could find courage out of somewhere and try to approach women, where should I go?

PD: I hope things go out well for all you people down there in New Zealand.

Hi CAPSLOCK,

I do understand Asperger's, the friend of mine (my best friend in Christchurch) that is staying with us has severe Asperger's, and another good friend of mine back in Spain has it too, although less severe in the spectrum. My friend here has lots of physical disabilities besides the Asperger's, and unfortunately he was abused as a child and teenager, so he carries his mental scars too. I am very good at picking the traits, and I personally have a soft spot for Aspies, as myself have some traits too (not diagnosed, and very, very mild, but they were more severe when I was a child and made my life difficult at school).

There is one advice that I would give you that can work sometimes, and others will put women off straight away, and that you probably have heard before. The advice is to be upfront and mention that you have Asperger's from the beginning. One of the main disadvantage for an Aspie during a date is that some of the traits are very, very similar to the body language of a person who is trying to hide something, or that has an unpredictable behaviour. And if the woman does not know about the condition, this will put her on guard, and seem "creepy". once a woman is on guard, there is very little you can do to recover your ground. As women are very, very good at picking gestures, there is virtually nothing you can do to "hide" it. If the woman knows about Asperger's she will relax, and will "forgive" the worrying gestures or hints, which will then be classified as "that goes together with his condition" instead of "this could mean the guy is planning to kill me when I am alone with him". Being upfront and honest will eliminate the women who would not be suitable anyway (you wouldn't want a romantic relationship with a woman who is prejudiced against Aspies to start with), and will give you room to stop trying to hide traits and be more of yourself with the remaining women. I know how difficult is to be upfront with something that you think could mean the end of a date. I know it is not easy, and you may discard this advice.

About being distant and holding back during a date... it is very difficult to advice you in this, because it really depends on the woman you are meeting. Some of them love the mysterious guy that do not give away almost anything others love the open and honest guy that will trust her with his secrets on the first date. Other women love to talk and talk and talk and do not mind if you haven't had the chance to talk in the whole evening. I believe the most difficult challenge is not to choose how to behave, but to behave in the way you are in a natural way. Asperger's makes you doubt yourself, as if you behaved in a completely uncensored way, people would still find your behaviour weird, so you have to try to combine the social ways you had to learn by memory (versus other people, who master these abilities by instinct) with the dating ways, which should be appropriate, but at the same time have to give a true image of who you are. You don't want to rehearse everything, because then the woman would not know you truly, just the rehearsal you've chosen to practice. In this sense, telling her about Asperger's and making sure she is informed about the condition will also give you more rope. If you are looking for a romantic relationship, and by chance the person you are with IS that person, then you want her to know who you are, the things you do, the things you like, and get to know your character.

Have you tried meeting other women with Asperger's? There are specific dating sites for this.

You say that girls usually classify you as "a good guy but no relationship material". This usually means you are acting as a friend, not a possible lover. You are treating girls like a brother, not like a partner. I think this has lots to do with your sexual problems, as it must be very hard to show a sexual interest when you yourself are apprehensive about sex. Can I ask, how much "sex" is "sex" for you and makes you feel uncomfortable? Are you ok with kissing, French kissing, touching? Is it just the sexual act that you find difficult?

On a first date anything can happen, from the woman running away screaming, to having a hot night of passion. This is where the gestures and double meanings play an important part, and where you have a disadvantage. You can't ask a woman to be direct and tell you what she wants, because part of being a woman is to be subtle, and this is not being mean, it is just another way of protecting ourselves. Even though you may have read here and there that "women know if they want to have sex with a guy they meet after just 5 minutes", that is just crap. We may feel an instant attraction sometimes, but if we actually have sex or not with that guy depends on many things... a woman's libido is like a candle: it's hot enough to burn, but it can be put off very easily. I may find a guy attractive, but the talk during the date will tell me a hundred different things that are actually not said: the way he looks at me, he moves his hands, the way he talks about other people, and treats other people... will tell me if that man is violent, if he is trustworthy, if he is affectionate, if he has a sense of humour, if he is self-confident.

This is why it is not possible to give you a recipe of how to behave in a date. I can't even do that if you were dating me! But if you were indeed dating me, telling me you have Asperger's would be a must. If you didn't tell me, I would very likely infer it myself, but I would still like you to tell me.

Also about how a date can escalate... usually body language is the hint here too. A woman who wants to have sex with you will get physically closer to you, as a show of trust. Women never get THAT close to a guy unless they are attracted to him (or, as in family, unless they trust that male completely), as getting very close to a man puts a woman in a vulnerable position. If she starts talking and smiling a lot and getting her face closer and closer to you, she may be teasing you to kiss her. If she leans to you to whisper in your ear, if she stands very close to you... all those are hints she may be sexually interested. The problem is, from then on, she will probably expect you to take the lead: you will have to risk getting a bit closer and actually kissing her. If a woman gives you all the hints, and you don't follow them on, she will believe you are not interested. And women who show interest and do not get corresponded get hurt easily, and she will be gone in no time.

I know, it is very complicated. And me being a woman does not make my advice simpler, does it? Hope it has helped a bit though. Let me know if there is anything else I can help with.

About what women expect you to do in sex, as in "touching yourself", it also depends on the woman. i don't think expecting the guy to touch himself is that common, i personally don't find it such a turn-on (I prefer to touch him myself . Usually it is the other way around: a guy finds a woman touching herself a big, big turn-on. If you are ashamed of your sexuality, I do wholeheartedly recommend you to go to sexual therapy as soon as possible, because women do not expect the guy to be ashamed of sex, and it would be an unpleasant surprise for her, that may put her off. If something happened in your past that affected you sexually, you have to fix that, or try to find out the cause, and the possible treatment, before you try to have sex with a woman. If you try to have sex without having help first, you may fail, and then your apprehension about sex will get worse. I know that, especially for a man, it is very difficult to ask for help in this. But in this case I am 100% sure that you could benefit from specialist help.

Hi Mitchell, thanks for your words and for the warm welcome

Hi bernard,

"I'm looking for a serious and meaningful relationship" --> this is a good start, knowing what you want will save you time and effort.

In the periods while I was single and missed having a partner, I found that I didn't like pubs either. Difficult to talk and get to know anyone there! I tried online dating, and though I found a couple of promising guys, if was a long, tedious, boring process, having to meet a hundred frogs to find a single interesting would-be-prince. I have talked to guys who tell me it is the same for them: lots of men and women lie on online profiles and are real time-wasters. However, I have met people for whom it has worked in the end, and several couples have been born in the depths of an online dating service. Have you ever tried this? Do you think you have the patience to?

"in my career the proportion of females males in a class is 1:17" --> Are you studying IT or Physics?

My advice to meet women would be to join a group to do something you like. For example: I love learning languages, and I have met interesting like-minded people in language classes. I like volunteering, and I try to join volunteering events. if you like hiking, join a hiking group. If you like reading, then you have a GREAT chance (I mean it!) if you join or start a book club! The proportion of male:female in a book club is usually 1:10, and the girls in those groups are usually intelligent, witty and great company. I am in a book club myself and we are 9 girls and one lucky guy . And it is easier than to try to speak in a library (you won't get hushed in a book club!. Book clubs are not always groups of elderly women knitting and talking about the latest Miles&Boone novel... in my book club, we start talking about a book and end up talking about any other subject (religion, politics, family, sex...) for hours! We meet at 7 pm and sometimes don't get home till 11 pm.

About women socializing in libraries... you would be surprised! Yes, you should definitely approach a woman in a library if you're interested. A woman who does not want to get approached and just wants to read in peace does not go to the library: she reads at home. I would be very open to be approached in the library, and the trick is to approach her with a genuine open question, such as: "Hey, I was planning to read that book, do you mind if I ask you what you think about it?". Yes, there is always the chance she will tell you to leave her alone, but that would not be my first bet. And if you try several times and you succeed in engaging with some of them, that will give you confidence to keep trying. Again, use your brain: if she does answer but does not smile, and looks confused, just thank her and move on. If you show her there is no threat, she may approach you later. A genuine question will make her curious about you and your interests.

Hope it helps and thanks for your good wishes for New Zealand... Kiwis are very resilient people, and amazing at helping each other. I have no doubt we will rise over this... but it will take time.

PS ¿Eres Colombiano? ¡Una española aquí!

Thanks for the reply, Coolwoman. Yes, I agree, less likely, but perhaps not a complete physical impossibility (assuming I was allowed to type or write or hand signal, or who knows what ) is what I would agree with.

Positivity is not compatible with my beliefs, however, so that's another thing women tend to not prefer about me. I would only be compatible with a woman who was "realistic with good intentions," which I have observed to be enormously different than being blindly positive.

Wishful thinking, and convenient denial of reality when reality is potentially unpleasant are some of the biggest turn offs possible for me in a partner. They can be downright irritating in an acquaintance, but something I could never tolerate it in a partner.

But I do understand most do not share my views. For most people positivity seems a magical solution to all problems, or at least a safe haven from being exposed to real life realities that might be potentially depressing.

In general, I think positivity and negativity are used as loaded terms, as a form of social control to encourage wanted, and discourage unwanted behaviors from people. In the end, they are often subjective value judgments, both ignoring reality and the intentions of others expressing their feelings or thoughts.

So for as long as someone is expressing what they see as reality, with the best of their intentions, I do not view what they say as negative... Potentially inaccurate, but not negative.

I just figured I'd point that out, as I often see myself as a man lumped in as someone that would prefer "positivity" from women. It may be I am a part of a small minority of truth seekers, you could say, but I would much prefer to hear what someone truly believes, feels, and experiences, over blind positivity, even if such a thing was the most depressing thing I've ever heard in my life.

i absolutely agree with you on trying to improve the traits you can, maximizing your good qualities and minimizing your negative qualities if possible

but i have a lot of problems with being positive, i'm not a positive thinker, i'm more of a 'realistic thinker' who tries to see the big picture, i also have a lot of frustration, disappointment and even anger in me as far as dating/relationships/women are concerned, its not that i'm unfriendly or mean with women, far from it, but when i feel disrespected i definitely won't hold back (at least not verbally)