This, guys. Most women JUST AREN'T WORTH IT.

Well applying for jobs (good jobs anyway) is a pain in the ass too.

Responding

So you're doing a great job. You've picked a great photo, written a wonderful bio and you've mailed a lot of folks you think you're a great match with. Try and remember that you'll probably have to message a lot of people to get a response. For online dating it's pretty normal to just not message back if you're not interested. Don't take it personally, just move on.

The important thing about mailing back and forth before meeting is that it's a great time to expand on your profiles a bit and find out if you've got a chance of liking each other if you meet up.

Try not to feel like this is just her screening you. You're also checking her out to see if she's what you're interested in.

Sadly, there's not many concrete examples I can give you here on how to talk to them online. Here's a quick do and don't list though.

Do:
-Keep things light, focus on positive points of conversation.
-Ask (polite) questions, learn as much as you can about her without being demanding
-Focus on mutual interests
-Propose a meeting in a relaxed, causal manner after a few mails (more about this later)
-Offer limited compliments based on her skills/interests/accomplishments rather than how she looks
-Talk about your hopes and expectations in concrete terms
-Mention your issues in limited, positive ways "I'm looking for an old fashioned relationship with a slow pace"
-Talk yourself up without tearing anyone else down. If you're clever talk about it without other people being stupid.

Don't:
-Demand a meeting right away
-Send multiple mails if she doesn't respond right away
-Demand to know if she's mailing other people
-Pressure her early on to meet with you
-Talk about your issues or concerns in depth. You can bring them up as you feel comfortable after meeting once or twice.
-Talk about other girls
-Make predictions for your future together before you've met
-Say anything racist/sexist/offensive
-Get negative/serious/demanding/desperate


Just relax and try to enjoy talking to girls in a relaxed, risk free environment. If you're not sure about something you're about to send her, try saving it and sending it the next day. Remember that chatting online is just that, chatting. Try not to build up to many hopes and expectations early on. Right now you're just getting the chance to learn the ropes of talking to potential dates in an online context. If you have a setback, try not to get discouraged and use that negative feedback to improve your communication skills.

Right.

Right.

Thanks for laying out this advice. I have been thinking about trying the on-line thing despite the fact everyone says the odds of success are practically nil.



I like this, sloth on Sunday and manned space flight debates. That would get my attention. I did come up with a catchy tag line but have to fill in the whole profile yet. Perhaps I will post it when done for critique and Sunday morning debate.



No problem there - I have 4 dogs!!!

Ah, and maybe leave out the obvious stuff? Of course you like wine and travel and picnics. Everyone does. Leave the assumed common ground out and just talk about the things that are interesting and great about you and the things that are important to you.

First dates

Oh, you've got a date! Awesome. Wait, calm down. Don't panic.

Speaking as a girl the most important things to keep in mind for dates are

-Making sure you have time to chat
You're there to get to know each other!
-Making sure there's something to do aside from chat
something to fill potentially awkward silences or rough spots
-Making sure it's something you can abort if it's going terribly
You're not going to want to sit through a three course meal if it's going horribly
-Making sure it's something you can continue if it's going really well
You totally want to be able to tack on another activity if it's going well
-Something affordable
Spending tons of money on a date that might or might not pan out is lame, save the cash for an exciting third date
-Something casual
Both of you want to be comfortable, not trying to figure out which fork is the one for pickles at a fancy place

I suggest looking at both of your interests and seeing what in them can match your needs. Very generic suggestions plus possible ad on activities to extend the date:

Lunch + drinks
Museum + coffee
Those kischy paint your own pottery places + lunch
Going to the park + a movie
... really, anything, google "great first date ideas" and do what they suggest. Or post your own.

The biggest thing about a first date is to be as relaxed as possible and to try and be yourself as much as possible. If you get stressed out, that freaks us out a bit. And if you try and put on a fake personality it's going to seem insincere. Just take a deep breath (and a xanax, if you must). If you get asked questions that make you uncomfortable, politely step around them where you can. Talk about her! Ask her questions! Listen! God, we love that.

On a first date I wouldn't bring up being incel/loveshy but if she asks about your past love life I might suggest just shruggingly saying you're a bit shy or terribly old fashioned or have been too busy to date much. You're not lying, you're just waiting a bit to see if you want to trust her with this kind of information. And don't press her about her sexual/romantic past. It's a bit rude. It's fine to ask about kids, if she's of the age likely to have them and you happen to be talking about families.

It is completely fine to talk about what you're looking for in general terms, not specific to her

Good: I'm really looking for a relationship that could get more serious
Bad: I would like for us to get married eventually

If you are super nervous, feel free to address is lightly and move past it. Saying "Sorry, I seem to be rather nervous!" is cute and charming.

Play it by ear. If you're getting along really well when the date seems to be ending, offer the add on activity. "Oh, there's a great pub here, if you would like to stop for a cider?" or just gracefully let it go. Even if you don't extend the date into something else, it's not a bad sign. I'll personally book something for just after a date so I've got a reason to leave if things go badly.

Things are ending, if you want to kiss her, do it now. But if you don't feel like it, don't stress. Someone else can give advice here because I'm never sure what to do and often fumble between shaking hands and hugging. It's common amongst the younger set to set a second date then if things have gone really, really well. If you want a really great way to set up a potential second date without putting the pressure on right there and then say something to the effect of "I had a great time tonight, can I text/call you in a day or two and see if you want to go out again?" Then go ahead and text her in a day or two! We love love love it when guys get in touch when they say they will. Please note though that it's rude but common for folks to not reply to texts instead of sending a polite no thank you. Just a sign of the times.

Even talking about kissing a woman fills me with anxiety. I'm fucked.

Nah, it's not something you have to do, first date. The only date I'd been on in ages where I really, really wanted to see the guy again was one where there was no kiss. No goodbye kiss is still better than someone trying to make out with you in public, in my prudish opinion.

Any girl who dislikes PDA can't be all bad!

exxie's advice is generally pretty solid.

I've used dating sites a bunch - here's some additional things to bear in mind :

As a guy, the onus is on you to message the girls. This isn't fair, but it's a product of every dating site having a bunch of guys on it that send bajillions of copy & paste messages to basically every profile flagged as female. When girls log into the site they're going to have to spend a while wading through these messages and checking out the profiles of the people who sent them. That drastically reduces the likelihood that they'll have time to go looking for people they want to message first. I've only received unsolicited messages on dating sites a handful of times - the vast majority of the time it's been me that's sent the first message. You can also expected to be ignored by 50 - 90% of the girls you message for the same reasons, and that's if you only message the ones you have a lot in common with. Don't take it personally. Expect a far higher ignore rate if you message people you have nothing in common with.

First dates. Exxie did mention this stuff, but it bears repeating - only propose a meeting after you've had a good back and forth conversation. Personally, I generally propose meetings that will be about half an hour long. (A lot of people come up with wacky schemes to have the option of cancelling the date at the 30 min mark if it's not going well - eg, getting a friend to phone them then, or even setting their phone to ring with a fake call - I don't want to do that myself, and I would feel uncomfortable if I thought the other person was doing that, so I usually explicitly say we'll only be meeting for that long.) If the date is going well at the 29 minute mark then it's easy enough for you to both agree to do one of these tack on activities exxie mentions.

Movies are a bad idea for dates as you can't talk. Going to see bands is similarly bad, unless you don't mind missing the band and going somewhere a bit quieter if you want to talk. Also, a LOT of women seem to have a social phobia about eating in front of people on first dates, so it's probably better not to plan a meal. Or at least check first whether eating would be a problem.

Okay. Here is my profile (the important bit);

'Inteliigent, thoughtful, affectionate person. My main passions in life are phototgraphy, cinema, good food, and my writing. I also like visiting places of interest, especially stone circles and other Neolithic sites. I also enjoy listening to music, and playing rather offbeat or abstract boardgames.'

Ok, this is a good start but you need more content are more specific content. Everyone likes good food, music and movies! Give us some more details. And talk more about who you're looking for. Also, calling yourself intelligent makes you sound a bit cocky, which you don't really want to lead with.

Give me a little bit more to work with, detailswise (no identifying details please) and I'll help you write something up.

What kind of foods are you into?
Do you cook? Do you want to learn how to cook? What foods?
What sort of photography? Digital, darkroom, landscapes etc?
Give me some music genres or bands.
Have you recently been to some of these sites? Which ones? Can we get a little more detail abotu why you're attracted to them? Are you looking for a partner who also is interested in this kind of travel?
Name some of these board games! If a girl is into the same niche thing you'll get an instant point to connect on.
Your favorite movie? Or genre? Why?
More about the kind of girl you want to meet.
Any pets? Close to your family?
Do you want to talk about your job at all, in a general way?
Do you want to talk about your life/romantic goals?

I would want to visit stone sites with. I don't see anything wrong with this profile. Why isn't not being specific leaving obvious questions to ask?

I agree with this point in general when it comes to dating sites. On a personal level, I dislike any form of bragging or arrogance.

"I'm intelligent" - It doesn't mean anything and lots of people say it without thinking deeply into it. Also, people can be intelligent in different ways.
"I'm good looking" - Let me be the judge of that. It's in the eye of the beholder
"I drive X car/earn X amount of money/ have a 4 bedroomed house/am successful" - You mean you fit into society's measure of success maybe? I tend to define my own :p Any profiles like that I glaze over.

What I do love though are honest, down to earth profiles with humour injected and unique in the sense of describing who they are in order to attract that one special girl who fits them rather than written to generate the most response.